Would Modern Catholicism Fix America?
I wrote this on a X today and thought I’d post it here also. I could sum up the discourse as a response to a common idea presented by Catholics today that Catholicism would fix what Protestantism broke in the west.
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Nevertheless gentlemen, a papacy had no place in American governance. You've both properly conceded this fact. As a Christian opposed to a papacy, I have a few thoughts on this matter to push back against what appears to me a false narrative presented to me by many Catholics today even in some responses here. Thank you to who’d read. And God bless.
America is obviously a new and very different nation than Italy. No kings, no popes, a representative republic with a unique judiciary, vast in its scale with its own geography and a cultural/linguistic homogeneity, etc. Comparing its model today (to over 330 million) to Italy's (w/ less than 60 million) in many ways is clearly apples to oranges as I'm sure you'd agree. I do not at all disagree that the Catholic Church helped build western society as the book's title says. But let’s remember that "Christian Rome" also fell in the early 5th cent. And that timeframe (from Constantine/his sons to that day) was far shorter than America's current history. Granted that was from without. But then, after a restructuring, by 1054 from within, wars and hostilities gave way to an entire religious/political schism throughout the whole of the empire that continues through today. I could illustrate these issues at great length. From early medieval times, Europe was scandalized by the constant chess games of its kings and popes. Rome's (as went all of Italy usually) history alone is permanently dotted with failures that if endured in the U.S. even just since its founding would constitute complete collapse. Multiple popes at times, investiture controversies galore, wars, contradictions, power struggles at every level, sexual immorality tantamount to ancient Sodom’s, assassinations, false religions, greedy simony and exploitative profiteering that'd make even a Nancy Pelosi blush during communion, etc. Rome's leaders at all levels were bought and sold both inside and outside the church in a horribly corrupt system that most Catholics today clearly recognize as defunct if not purely pagan. The sum of these parts shows us a clearly an un-biblical and failed governance, and all under- in my theology anyway- the un-biblical papacy. Rome's (Italy's) is an ugly history with a lot of nice art. I’ve been there. The medieval developed system today survives more by a wider and separated modern political power than an ecclesiastical one. On another inescapable level then, the religio-political system of Romanism is no more surely commanded by Christ than modern America’s or anyone else’s. The questions of any governmental system’s legitimacy cannot be measured outside of a more complex rubric.
Yet many Catholics today want to try to hang America’s secularism on the neck of Protestantism. As if imagining for a moment that all churches worldwide aren’t at various levels affected by the wealth of the modern era or the philosophies of the Enlightenment, etc. As if we legitimate Protestants (who actually practice the Bible as inspired and authoritative) somehow don’t teach that the church (the one of 2K years with Christ as its only head and its elders properly identified and appointed in each locale) should unify a people as a people. Or that the lives of Christians isn’t communal. As if we don’t teach that sound teaching and accountability to Christ and to his church in your life doesn’t impact who you are or what you do. We do, we have, we will. And we call Catholics to join us.
What America, as a governmental ideal, *should represent, with all of its failures also, is a far more biblically substantial model of governance than ancient Rome's was. The three biblical spheres of influence of church (not possibly Roman Catholic), family (a man, a woman, kids), and state (industrious and noble servants for the good of the whole) are maintainable in full biblical honor. The church as Rome defines herself is not biblical. Therefore, leaving it aside, it need not be Constitutional. And wasn’t. And I’m fully aware that many if not most of the “Founding Fathers” (mostly guys in their 20’s) were heretics. Therefore, I see the hand of providence even more than them in what they left behind.
Question for anyone: *if* the foundational documents of the U.S., its Constitution (w/ a developing Bill of Rights) and the Declaration of Independence were lived out, would we not have in the U.S. just about every degree of peace or prosperity we'd all hope for as a people? I think and would argue so. Would the church, state, and the family, interconnected but not governmentally nested, not be able to function unto the glory of God and the good of a people? Ex: If “All men are created equal…” from the start had prevented America’s relatively minor participation in the evils of chattel slavery, would it not have been a non-issue? Not requiring the wars that followed? Yes. So, we can look at the document and see the error comparing it to Christ’s wisdom which perhaps led to the document, and amazingly, we see that we needn’t toss out the document at all. The ideal remains from it. The foundational ideal or plan under God (see Mayflower Compact) is solid…with planned space for adding on some other nice rooms. Can’t go into all the ways this works, but it does. And the sentiments of former U.S. leaders that understood that our system of government is “only fit to govern an already religious people" only strengthens the system. We as a people want churches, we must allow for other religions understanding that a government isn’t God’s house learning from many peoples’ histories. The religion we want and need isn't something like Islam, Mormonism, or Roman Catholicism, but Christianity. Protestant Christianity. This is rulers caring for the entire good of their people. Then, alongside or on top of a good governance, we would have the church(es) everywhere (by the way able to evangelize any immigrants around us) and the family that alone makes the world turn as God is gracious to a people. And he has been to us. Our presidents and leaders would be raised up in our churches in families that heard and could live out the Gospel that was all around them, along with God’s full counsel, with their neighbors. The American ideal facilitates a nation’s prosperity on solid biblical grounds.
The Catholic model “fixes” nothing…though it’s often presented as such to people who see our clear national evil today…which we all can and should. It’s like any political challenger against any incumbent: “He or she’s the problem; I’m the solution.” I could say the same in Catholic lands in just about every generation, especially when leaders were most evil, and present a “Protestant fix-all answer” too. I recognize this a lot and most doing it aren’t even aware of it. Every leader (other than Jesus) fails in some ways and failures of any sort can always be isolated. We can all also be guilty of either intentionally or unintentionally seeming to say something we might not wish to, but the schism’s and factions of the idea that if everyone was just Catholic most of our problems would disappear could be as faulty as me saying if we were all just Baptist Reformed folks, America’s problem’s would basically evaporate. But since neither system is necessarily apostolic, the lie that Papists often sell, like political challengers, are dangerously faulty. Look today at Fiducia Supplicans. Is everyone submitted to Rome? The answer is no. Many Catholics see this as “satanic” work from the Vatican and have publicly said so. So, the idea that an infallible head “fixes things” is as silly as saying, “If everyone just had a Bible” we’d be fixed. And historically, what of the Arian resurgence post Nicea 1? Or the post-mortem condemnations of the theology of Pope Honorious and other anti-popes (if I apply that definition rightly here), or Nestorianism, Pelgianism, the growing sedevacantists, Monophysitism, Eutychianism, Pro-LGBTQ priests across Germany and England, Manicheanism, indulgence abuses, etc. And the worst part of Romanism today *aren’t the ideas that some of its honorable leaders have argued well against. Sadly, it’s the doctrines it teaches today such as papal infallibility (in the Hildebrand on sense), transubstantiation (anathematizing opposition to extended metaphysical definition), Mariology (Mariolatry), purgation, infused righteousness, its full on sacramental synergism works righteousness paganism, etc. So, submission to apostate authorities may indeed bring ecclesiastical peace “under ones own roof” but it still says nothing about the governance of your neighborhood! The problems are too wide for any one solution. True churches have existed in Rome’s history. In Catholic Europe’s. But there comes a point when dogmatized heresy changes that. All you need to do to convince a learned Christian is to show them where God’s inspired word (our only infallible source) gives the answer soundly and you’ve won us, and that’s true whether inside or outside the church on any matter. Good councils in Catholic history have demonstrated this fact repeatedly. And we all have lenses.
America today is a nation clearly under God’s just wrath for public and flagrant sin. The ideas that shaped our nation nevertheless came from a semblance of biblical wisdom governmentally applied and have literally changed earth. America's governance isn't a church's statement of faith, but it was an ideal birthed from, among many things, seeing the utter failures of Catholic nations. It was a willing departure, and one worth fighting to keep. I will.
I'm a westerner, but while I primary reject the modern Roman Catholic Church based on my heavenly citizenship, I also reject its idea that it’s a political system that works. No. Only if we ignore Scripture, and history, could I assume that it ever would.
------------------
Nevertheless gentlemen, a papacy had no place in American governance. You've both properly conceded this fact. As a Christian opposed to a papacy, I have a few thoughts on this matter to push back against what appears to me a false narrative presented to me by many Catholics today even in some responses here. Thank you to who’d read. And God bless.
America is obviously a new and very different nation than Italy. No kings, no popes, a representative republic with a unique judiciary, vast in its scale with its own geography and a cultural/linguistic homogeneity, etc. Comparing its model today (to over 330 million) to Italy's (w/ less than 60 million) in many ways is clearly apples to oranges as I'm sure you'd agree. I do not at all disagree that the Catholic Church helped build western society as the book's title says. But let’s remember that "Christian Rome" also fell in the early 5th cent. And that timeframe (from Constantine/his sons to that day) was far shorter than America's current history. Granted that was from without. But then, after a restructuring, by 1054 from within, wars and hostilities gave way to an entire religious/political schism throughout the whole of the empire that continues through today. I could illustrate these issues at great length. From early medieval times, Europe was scandalized by the constant chess games of its kings and popes. Rome's (as went all of Italy usually) history alone is permanently dotted with failures that if endured in the U.S. even just since its founding would constitute complete collapse. Multiple popes at times, investiture controversies galore, wars, contradictions, power struggles at every level, sexual immorality tantamount to ancient Sodom’s, assassinations, false religions, greedy simony and exploitative profiteering that'd make even a Nancy Pelosi blush during communion, etc. Rome's leaders at all levels were bought and sold both inside and outside the church in a horribly corrupt system that most Catholics today clearly recognize as defunct if not purely pagan. The sum of these parts shows us a clearly an un-biblical and failed governance, and all under- in my theology anyway- the un-biblical papacy. Rome's (Italy's) is an ugly history with a lot of nice art. I’ve been there. The medieval developed system today survives more by a wider and separated modern political power than an ecclesiastical one. On another inescapable level then, the religio-political system of Romanism is no more surely commanded by Christ than modern America’s or anyone else’s. The questions of any governmental system’s legitimacy cannot be measured outside of a more complex rubric.
Yet many Catholics today want to try to hang America’s secularism on the neck of Protestantism. As if imagining for a moment that all churches worldwide aren’t at various levels affected by the wealth of the modern era or the philosophies of the Enlightenment, etc. As if we legitimate Protestants (who actually practice the Bible as inspired and authoritative) somehow don’t teach that the church (the one of 2K years with Christ as its only head and its elders properly identified and appointed in each locale) should unify a people as a people. Or that the lives of Christians isn’t communal. As if we don’t teach that sound teaching and accountability to Christ and to his church in your life doesn’t impact who you are or what you do. We do, we have, we will. And we call Catholics to join us.
What America, as a governmental ideal, *should represent, with all of its failures also, is a far more biblically substantial model of governance than ancient Rome's was. The three biblical spheres of influence of church (not possibly Roman Catholic), family (a man, a woman, kids), and state (industrious and noble servants for the good of the whole) are maintainable in full biblical honor. The church as Rome defines herself is not biblical. Therefore, leaving it aside, it need not be Constitutional. And wasn’t. And I’m fully aware that many if not most of the “Founding Fathers” (mostly guys in their 20’s) were heretics. Therefore, I see the hand of providence even more than them in what they left behind.
Question for anyone: *if* the foundational documents of the U.S., its Constitution (w/ a developing Bill of Rights) and the Declaration of Independence were lived out, would we not have in the U.S. just about every degree of peace or prosperity we'd all hope for as a people? I think and would argue so. Would the church, state, and the family, interconnected but not governmentally nested, not be able to function unto the glory of God and the good of a people? Ex: If “All men are created equal…” from the start had prevented America’s relatively minor participation in the evils of chattel slavery, would it not have been a non-issue? Not requiring the wars that followed? Yes. So, we can look at the document and see the error comparing it to Christ’s wisdom which perhaps led to the document, and amazingly, we see that we needn’t toss out the document at all. The ideal remains from it. The foundational ideal or plan under God (see Mayflower Compact) is solid…with planned space for adding on some other nice rooms. Can’t go into all the ways this works, but it does. And the sentiments of former U.S. leaders that understood that our system of government is “only fit to govern an already religious people" only strengthens the system. We as a people want churches, we must allow for other religions understanding that a government isn’t God’s house learning from many peoples’ histories. The religion we want and need isn't something like Islam, Mormonism, or Roman Catholicism, but Christianity. Protestant Christianity. This is rulers caring for the entire good of their people. Then, alongside or on top of a good governance, we would have the church(es) everywhere (by the way able to evangelize any immigrants around us) and the family that alone makes the world turn as God is gracious to a people. And he has been to us. Our presidents and leaders would be raised up in our churches in families that heard and could live out the Gospel that was all around them, along with God’s full counsel, with their neighbors. The American ideal facilitates a nation’s prosperity on solid biblical grounds.
The Catholic model “fixes” nothing…though it’s often presented as such to people who see our clear national evil today…which we all can and should. It’s like any political challenger against any incumbent: “He or she’s the problem; I’m the solution.” I could say the same in Catholic lands in just about every generation, especially when leaders were most evil, and present a “Protestant fix-all answer” too. I recognize this a lot and most doing it aren’t even aware of it. Every leader (other than Jesus) fails in some ways and failures of any sort can always be isolated. We can all also be guilty of either intentionally or unintentionally seeming to say something we might not wish to, but the schism’s and factions of the idea that if everyone was just Catholic most of our problems would disappear could be as faulty as me saying if we were all just Baptist Reformed folks, America’s problem’s would basically evaporate. But since neither system is necessarily apostolic, the lie that Papists often sell, like political challengers, are dangerously faulty. Look today at Fiducia Supplicans. Is everyone submitted to Rome? The answer is no. Many Catholics see this as “satanic” work from the Vatican and have publicly said so. So, the idea that an infallible head “fixes things” is as silly as saying, “If everyone just had a Bible” we’d be fixed. And historically, what of the Arian resurgence post Nicea 1? Or the post-mortem condemnations of the theology of Pope Honorious and other anti-popes (if I apply that definition rightly here), or Nestorianism, Pelgianism, the growing sedevacantists, Monophysitism, Eutychianism, Pro-LGBTQ priests across Germany and England, Manicheanism, indulgence abuses, etc. And the worst part of Romanism today *aren’t the ideas that some of its honorable leaders have argued well against. Sadly, it’s the doctrines it teaches today such as papal infallibility (in the Hildebrand on sense), transubstantiation (anathematizing opposition to extended metaphysical definition), Mariology (Mariolatry), purgation, infused righteousness, its full on sacramental synergism works righteousness paganism, etc. So, submission to apostate authorities may indeed bring ecclesiastical peace “under ones own roof” but it still says nothing about the governance of your neighborhood! The problems are too wide for any one solution. True churches have existed in Rome’s history. In Catholic Europe’s. But there comes a point when dogmatized heresy changes that. All you need to do to convince a learned Christian is to show them where God’s inspired word (our only infallible source) gives the answer soundly and you’ve won us, and that’s true whether inside or outside the church on any matter. Good councils in Catholic history have demonstrated this fact repeatedly. And we all have lenses.
America today is a nation clearly under God’s just wrath for public and flagrant sin. The ideas that shaped our nation nevertheless came from a semblance of biblical wisdom governmentally applied and have literally changed earth. America's governance isn't a church's statement of faith, but it was an ideal birthed from, among many things, seeing the utter failures of Catholic nations. It was a willing departure, and one worth fighting to keep. I will.
I'm a westerner, but while I primary reject the modern Roman Catholic Church based on my heavenly citizenship, I also reject its idea that it’s a political system that works. No. Only if we ignore Scripture, and history, could I assume that it ever would.
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